Monday, September 8, 2008


I really hate to talk about politics.Mostly because all the people that I love/work and go to church with have such a vastly different idea about the situation than my dh and I do. But I've just got to say a few words here about McCain's VP pick.

Why, oh why, is the Christian Right so gaga over this woman? Why are the same people that "support" the family, care about old-fashioned Biblical values and encourage traditional gender roles tripping all over themselves to send a woman with five children, including a 4-month-old (with special needs, no less!) to the White House as a second-in-command with more responsibility than any other in the free world?? I'm just asking...

And secondly, which of you women who've had children can look back and honestly think that four months after giving birth you were mentally, physically and emotionally ready to be "a heartbeat from the Presidency"? I was barely capable of getting two kids into the car and out the door to grocery shop, much less organizing an army to invade a country armed with nuclear weapons. I'm just saying...


Rachel said...

God calls people (and women are no different) to various callings. I have no doubt that she can handle it, she seems very capable and so far the best candidate I've seen. No, I would not want to be in her shoes and I do feel sorry for her children. BUT, would I not vote for her and then put Obama in as president, no, definitely not. I feel that if you vote for anyone other than McCain/Palin, you are indirectly voting for Obama.
The Proverbs 31 women has many jobs and is very talented.
I agree with you in a way, but since she IS the pick, I believe we have to back her and McCain and pray that the Lord sees fit to put them into power not Obama.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on it!! : )

Herb of Grace said...

I'm actually planning to vote for Obama-- currently. Told you my political thoughts were different than most of my friends and family...

The Cranberry Paper said...

wow.. I never would have guessed that. While I DO see the relevancy of your post.. And that Palins irresponsibillity toward her family is somewhat disgusting...

It My country were to go to a massive war ...with all the nukes and bombs and fall out ..I dont think I would be comfortable putting a man like Obama in charge for the mere reason that he has a total lack of experience. And I cannot also with a clean heart vote for a man who advocates abortion :(

But..Voting other wise means dragging Palin into the whitehouse...which may or maynot be a wise decision. :-? Politics stink...

Chris and Jennifer said...

A vote for Obama is vote for the establishment of bigger gov't and resurrection of pro-choice laws. Not to mention the seating of many, many judges which would rule more liberally on important matters. Also the next president will likely nominate 2 SCOTUS justices. If you're a liberal, than voting for the two most liberal senators over the last few years makes sense. My apologies for mistaking you as conservative.

I think its possible to be a Christian and vote for Obama, of course. But I do believe that a conservative would not be able to pull the trigger on the Obama ticket and be in agreement with more than 10% of his polices.

If you are conservative, (which if you are not, then by all means, vote according to your liberality) it seems that you should give account for your support of Obama and seemingly his policies. In what way do you find his polices on taxes, regulation of business, foreign policy, immigration, health care, abortion, and gun control to be in line with either a conservative world view or a libertarian world view? I must confess, I see extremely little congruence to either set of beliefs.

j said...

Chris & Jennifer:

Is it possible to be a conservative and vote Obama? Well, is it possible to be a conservative and vote McCain?

The last 8 years have not been "conservative," by the traditional definition. Government has expanded, we're running the largest deficit in our history, we're involved in an interventionist war of choice, we've trashed the economy but are bailing out big firm after big firm, we've taken to spying on American citizens and suspending fundamental centuries-old rights like habeas corpus and prohibitions against torture, and we've adopted the Constitutionally unsound theory of the "unitary executive" whose war-time powers supposedly put him above all laws.

So the party that used to warn us not to trust the government has overseen an enormous encroachment of the federal government's power into individual rights. The party that blasted Clinton for Bosnia and promised a "humbler foreign policy" undertook a project to spread democracy by the sword in Iraq. The party that used to demand strict adherence to our Constitution is now the party who says, "the Constitution is not a death pact" and talks about needing to "update" its old-fashioned provisions (like that whole 4th Amendment secure against unwarranted search thing).

So there is no conservative party in this election. There's a liberal party and a neo-conservative party -- which is a party that loves big government just as much as the next guy, but wants to use it to start wars and spy on "trouble-makers."

Throwing out the idea that you're going to vote "conservative," what's left?

I don't know a whole lot about economic policy, but I can see that the last 8 years have been pretty bad. Experience suggests that there is no reason to continue voting Republican on economic grounds.

Same for health care. The system is badly broken, and Elisa and I have both experienced that personally on a couple occasions. I believe a truly open market would be better, but given that neither candidate will give us that, I'll go for the candidate who I consider less likely to sell us out to industry interests, and the candidate whose party has not overseen the broken system for 8 years and done nothing.

Judges? A truly conservative judge would not have ruled (as the two Bush appointees did, but were overruled) that detainees have no right to challenge their detention in court. A truly conservative judge would have respected the centuries-old tradition going back to the Magna Carta saying that all men do.

Even McCain realizes we're fed up, which is why he ridiculously and repeatedly insists that he and Palin will "bring change to Washington." Well, he and his guys had 8 years, and the only change I've seen is for the worse.

Abortion is a troubling issue, and one that neither of us want to see advanced. I can't speak for Elisa, but two things mitigate my desire to keep my pro-life voting record clean. (1) The Republicans talk a lot about abortion in the months before an election, and then get into power and don't change a thing. Abortion ought to be illegal, but no one is going to make that happen, despite their hollow campaign promises. McCain wanted Leiberman as his VP -- a pro-choice Democrat. If the issue means so little to McCain that he's willing to consider a pro-choice running mate, do you think he has the political will necessary to push anti-abortion legislation through a Democratic-controlled Congress? No way. (2) Unjust wars of aggression are just as serious a moral issue for me as abortion. I don't want to see any babies killed, born or unborn, American or Iraqi or Iranian. McCain is a war candidate. That's how he talks, that's how he sees himself, that's how he'll lead. He has every intention of continuing what he calls "the transcendent struggle of our age." I've had enough with leaders who see the world as good guys versus bad guys, and bad guys can't be negotiated with so don't bother trying, just drop the bombs already.

So I am not a liberal. But I would never vote McCain/Palin. I am considering voting Obama.

And I'll turn the question back to you. How, as a conservative, can you vote for the party that has trashed the Constitution, run up the deficit, instituted state spying and propaganda, and gotten us entangled in foreign wars of choice?

The Cranberry Paper said...

Hmm. Everything you have said is true. I guess in the age in which we live...all of this is to somewhat be expected. It must all get worse and worse before Christ's triumphant return. I dont think (and neither does my husband, I speak for both of our ideal when I say this) I dont think there is ever going to be a clear cut "Conservitave vs. Liberal" presidential race as long as this old world stands. Really...I think its going to be about a lesser of two evils. I think all of us know we can pretty much hang up the "make abortion illegal" wont many things depend on abortion..such as...our countrys economy...our nations welfare system...our vaccination laws. BUT..I feel like some sort of heel voting for a man who outright says..he dosent think that life begins at conception. At least McCain has guts enough to say it...I do appreciate that. By and large...what my husbands concern about the two of them is ..homeland security. He believes if you dont fight the war will fight it here...He got out of service a few years back and saw some ugly things. There are people out there whos devout religious belief if to kill all of us...and they dont seem like they will stop for anything. As previously stated...He belives if all troops pull out...then we will fight it here instead of there..I dont think Obama has the experience...or the realization to make such a bold decision.

That being said...I totally see where yall are coming from. Alot of people feel very strongly about politics...but...i think its pretty much a grey area to be delt with....Pick what you believe to be the lesser of two evils. I contemplated not voting at I wouldent have to support something that I really know next to nothing about. But...Its a freedom we have and I suppose it should be excercised the best way we know how. Im glad to see a family like you guys thinking it through and not doing like majority of the population
and voting based on...Gender, race, religion, or whatever...but really looking at what these candidates really or supposedly stand for.

thanks j
for that good post

Jenny said...

Well, Lis, I think you opened that ugly can of worms we've all tried to avoid looking at!
The last few presidential elections have been difficult. I have to admit to being pleasantly surprised at Bush (I won't go into the details of that, but don't assume I mean the obvious stuff he's done which may appear "bad" to some). It's felt much more like voting for the "lesser of evils" and not really supporting anyone. I hate that feeling. Unfortunately, that's the way our country has gotten. At this point, Obama (WHO he is and where he's coming from) scares the bejeebies out of me -- I feel like there's so much he's saying that he knows everybody wants to hear (and it's just so much hot air as he seems to have no real workable plan to accomplish anything he's promising and many of the offerings he's making would end up causing much bigger problems than they'd solve!). He's got the charisma to get people behind him, but there's nothing substantial underneath, which seems to me, would lead to him being LED by all the other democrats around him. I think he's a Party guy (ie. backed by the democrats cause they see that he can get the votes even if he has no idea what he's doing, and they can use and maybe even manipulate him later).
As for McCain, he's not a true conservative, no. I won't judge his "Christianity" out loud, but I have my doubts about the level of sincerity there, too. I agree with you about Palin's lack of responsibility for her family. Then again, I also think God uses people and gives them the grace and strength to do the job He has for them. I know I could never do even what I DO do (and comparitively, it ain't much)without His grace.
The issue with appointing judges is a big one -- and I'd rather take a chance on McCain for that one. That's a long haul issue. The economy, they'll probably both screw up. The war will end when it's time (sooner would be better than later, but I believe that God has a large say in all that, too). Abortion and gay marriage are huge issues, and while I am adamantly against both, in the end they will be decided by the morals of individual people and the ones against it doing everything they can to help others to NOT do it. Of course, it would be wonderful to stop them legally, but abortions will continue even if they are illegal. Gay marriage could eventually destroy the foundational family unit of our country and cause great financial issues for the "straight". I would never, in good conscience, be able to vote for anyone that supported either one.
As for health care, I see no good answer to that one -- democrat or republican. No one has come up with something that could actually work. I know that if gay marriage is legal and therefore benefits for same sex couples, more money goes out. Not sure how all that will play out, but it doesn't seem like its a good thing.
In my gut, I know Obama would be really BAD for this country.
I'm not saying McCain would be good, but just that Obama would be BAD.
Not a very nice choice to have to make.
Though I will say, with Palin as McCain's running mate, I actually feel a little better about voting for McCain. We can hope, with all her "ethics" stuff, that she'll make him tow the line:)
In the end, God is still in control.

j said...

cranberry paper:

Thanks, and I agree that while politics is an issue people feel strongly about, it is almost always some compromise that a person thinks is the best way to advance worthy principles. I don't want my blunt opinions to make people think that I doubt the good intentions of those who disagree.

cp and jenny:

I find it interesting you both mention "choosing the lesser evil." This is an issue I've struggled with. Obama would be, for me, the lesser evil, just as McCain would be for you. But I haven't decided to vote for him because I can't help wonder whether we, as Christians, should not settle for an "evil" at all. We should vote for a good candidate, not a perfect candidate of course, but a candidate that we would not feel the need to characterize as "a lesser evil." Is our responsibility as Christians not to choose good and trust God? Is it evidence of our lack of trust in God's providence that we feel we simply must advance a lesser evil in order to stave off a greater one?

As a thought experiment, let's say Jesus, Hitler, and Mussolini are running in an election. You know that Jesus has no chance of winning, but Mussolini does, and if you vote for him, you just might keep Hitler out of office. For whom do you vote?

Ok, so maybe Jesus is a special case. What if it were Churchill, Hitler, and Mussolini. Same scenario -- Churchill has no shot. For whom do you vote?

As I said, I haven't settled this issue to my own satisfaction. It's something I'm thinking through, and will eventually decide whether I vote third party or Obama.

The Cranberry Paper said...

Youre right about that. I guess what we havent REALLY decided is...wether or not to do the "right thing" and so called "waste our vote" on a third party who has no shot at all...or attempt to pool our votes with others in hopes of keeping the greatest evil (or our impression of such) out of office....Hard to know exactally what the "right thing" is. *sigh*

Further Up & Further In said...

I am currently considering whether I should vote at all, based on my Loyalties to the Kingdom of Heaven, my eternal home. I strongly hesitate to support *anything* that any party does in government by casting a vote to bring them into power. Honestly, most of what goes on in American government on any level represents almost nothing of the original American Independent Spirit that was present in our founding fathers' generation. I have serious fundamental problems with most of the current issues (i.e., I don't believe there should be "healthcare" at all, so how can I vote to reform the system when I think it should be abolished? Neither do I believe in public education *at all* funded by government, so how can I cast a vote for someone who's going to tolerate and even condone it? Try finding a candidate who is *against* public education!!!!! Not to mention gay a movie I recently watched a judge says to a couple who is requesting a divorce after 1 week of marriage, "You know, gay people aren't destroying the sanctity of marriage, YOU people are." That is to say, outlawing gay marriages will fix NONE of the problems that our society has with its degrading concept of marriage. YOU PEOPLE are who/what makes it obvious to the rest of society what marriage truly is.)

My core beliefs would lead me, ultimately, to want to set up a sort of Theocracy here on, I am having all sorts of trouble being at peace with even appearing to be at ease with any political party. I want my actions to speak purely what I believe. I don't believe in the American Government anymore.

Chris and Jennifer said...

First, I agree that the modern conservatives are not so in practice over the last few years. However, most are not neo-conservatives. That it is a label for nixon democrats that became conservative for the economic policy reasons. The suggestion that McCain is a neo-conservative is laughable. In fact, McCain's polices and votes have tracked the conservative model more than many other GOP senators over the last 8 years. For instance, McCain voted against the Bush tax cuts because there weren't spending offsets. Classic conservative policy.

A statement that there hasn't been progress in changing abortion laws is unbelievably ill informed. How about the partial birth abortion act (Obama voted against at the state level btw), the state laws that have been allowed to stand thanks to GOP approved congress, or the federal law on abortion that did not allow for the health of the mother exceptions for the first time and was upheld! Why would NARAL care so much about a McCain presidency if they thought he was going to support pro-choice policy?

Moreover, Obama policies are classic liberal policies. Expansive government, larger taxes on businesses, and socially "progressive" laws. McCain has a record of supporting the exact opposite in his supported legislation. To suggest otherwise is simply repeating unfounded democratic lies.

My friend, you speak as a liberal, give the talking points of the liberal media, and support liberal economic polices. You are not a conservative. If you will vote for a man who has said that he will sign the woman's right to choose act within his first 100 days - you are not committed the rights of the unborn. This act that would reverse the progress we've made over the last 10 years. McCain promises to support the unborn unconditionally. What is hard about that choice?

Government run health care? That would be a huge mistake. The government has never had a history of managing anything efficiently. Is there problems, yes. But abandon conservative CORE beliefs? Never, on my watch.

Are you criticizing Roberts and Alito? Roberts was an absolutely brilliant pick, the best thing about the Bush presidency. Alito also has ruled very well in cases. They have abided by the constitution. Would you have our laws decided by the Magna Carta? Why don't start using EU law as well? In fact, we'll scrap the constitution and all case law and make a decision that is based on external sources of law. Do not blame the court, blame the DEMOCRATIC congress for not doing anything about it for the last 2 years.

Where are the changes the dems promised us two years ago? What did they do about the Iraq war? Nothing, only McCain stood up and took charge and because of that our troops are coming home this january. Obama voted against the surge. The GOP has not had the last 8 years, they had the first 6, blew it, then gave the dems a chance. The result - the most unpopular congress in history.

Change, Obama already had two years to effect change. So let's list the bills he sponsored (not signed onto after the fact)......Done.

While I suppose a liberal voting for Obama makes sense, it does not for a conservative who cares about free market ideals and many lives of the unborn. If you wait for the perfect candidate you will be waiting forever. But McCain is conservative and his life has been dedicated to conservative ideals. My friend, I implore you to re-consider you value conservative ideals and the lives of the unborn. I will not fill your blog with more on this subject, but I urge you to look closer at McCain's votes and his bills.

"And I'll turn the question back to you. How, as a conservative, can you vote for the party that has trashed the Constitution, run up the deficit, instituted state spying and propaganda, and gotten us entangled in foreign wars of choice?"

trashed the Constitution - In what way? Surely you jest to even suggest that Alito and Roberts have "trashed the constitution". If you don't like the detainee decision, I suggest that you blame the democratic congress for doing anything about it. Further, that is ONE issue. The many other decisions the justices have authored have been very strict in their construction. Having been trough constitutional law by a sitting conservative supreme court justice, I bristle at your remark.

run up the deficit - GOP blew it on that one. No argument. But McCain's voted against the increase in the budget. Obama has had the most liberal voting record any presidential nominee - EVER. While he accuses McCain of voting 90% with Bush (which is a dubious claim) he voted 97% with the democratic sponsored bills. Obama certainly hasn't fought the establishment.

Spy-gate and wars of choice - well that certainly is a page out of the Obama playbook. That is just way too long to debate with you and it wearies me as tedious.

Bottom line - I'm not voting for a party. I am voting for a flawed human. But a man that will protect the sanctity of life, enact conservative ideals, and not give in the godless agenda of the left. God help us if more so-called pro-life conservative families vote for the most liberal nominee in the history of the US.

j said...

chris & jennifer:

Lis tells me that she doesn't want her blog to become a political battleground, so I'll be brief. I'd be glad to take such discussions to my own (lonely and infrequently updated) blog or to yours.

Whatever McCain may have been in 2000, McCain 2008 is a rank and file Republican. You mention his 2001 and 2003 vote against the Bush tax cuts (and I respected him for making a tough but fiscally wise choice), but you fail to mention that he changed position on that issue (and many others) to fall in line with a party unenthused about his nomination. Where he once decried the 1.8 trillion dollar price tag over 10 years, he now advocates making those cuts permanent. He's made similar flip-flops on torture, immigration, and presidential powers.

(That's actually another issue for me -- his willingness to change stance on so many key issues, especially torture, in order to win his base.)

On issues of individual liberties, my stance does not come "right out of Obama's playbook." I share it, for example, with Ron Paul, who is certainly no liberal. Furthermore, I would vigorously argue that I share it with a truly conservative view of our government -- one rooted in the intent of the Founders. Such a view would agree that wars are only to be conducted as a last resort and in the defense of our soil, that the right to Habeas Corpus is not granted by your citizenship but is one of those fundamental rights endowed to all men by their Creator, that captives of the United States ought to be afforded the dignity due them as creatures made in the image of God, that it is sheer folly to trust the executive branch with the power to conduct unwarranted and unsupervised surveillance on its citizens. They called that kind of thing tyranny back in 1776, and they didn't have a high view of it. I'm being brief, so I won't go into it, but I'd like to. So send me an email if you decide to write your own blog post on the issue.

Theron said...

Howdy! Was sent over by Polly to your blog.

While I respect your choice in voting for Obama, I agree with Chris and Jennifer on this topic.

I also agree that politics stink and that there is no perfect candidate! However, one must vote their conscience. For me, to vote for someone who supports outright infanticide would be impossible, no matter what their stances on anything else are.

That shows what kind of a person they would be: when someone is willing to sacrifice the life of an innocent child to preserve the facade of political correctness, they will make decisions based on these core values in other areas as well.

And Biden has all but admitted that life begins at conception, which means that he thinks abortion is murder. Pretty strong language for someone who has actively supported genocide in the womb for the last 20 years!

Please don't just vote for Obama just because you're upset with McCain for choosing Palin! Yes, her family is already suffering greatly and for that I am ashamed of both parties. Even Hillary didn't get the junk that's being thrown at her by Obama supporters!

But the deal is that being a mother, Palin will no doubt bring the issue of abortion to the forefront (and indeed already has) and push through some solid solutions while VP.

Yes, McCain nor Palin aren't perfect, but neither is Obama (and definitely not Biden!). We need leaders who are sure of where they stand and are not swayed by political correctness in their decision making. For that, I'm willing to tolerate a few imperfections here and there.